What are you Japanese? Should I be specific with the dates regarding Vietnam, Tibet, Korea, and so on. Specific with who and want. It's trivia and kept simple, sheesh. I'm going to revert it, please leave it alone.
You should be more specific, because it's quite insulting with how you describe other countries relations with the numerous different Chinese dynasties as if they're just a footnote in history. Some dynasties were foreign rulers such as the Yuan dynasty were Mongols and the Qing dynasty were Manchus.
I've corrected a lot of biased information in China Trivia. China was not "one continuous empire" that is an old Chinese myth to glorify its history. There were over a dozen different empires, dynasties, multiple foreign rulers (Mongols, Manchus, European imperial powers who had controlling influence over China and multiple enclaves, Japanese occupation) etc.
I Really appreciate your edits, knowledge and passion on these subjects, however please keep it within the Cyberpunk universe. Real world information should really only be reference with a link to a wikipedia article. All information on countries population, governmental systems, miliitary and so on, should only come from the sourcebooks (in this instance, pacific rim).
Actually I provided citations / source links in the Cyberpunk page for the Triads. You'll see what I mean when I say that Chinese organized crime has dominated the underworld (especially drugs, smuggling, and piracy) throughout Southeast Asia since the 1800s, and have dominated the vice rackets (gambling and prostitution) in the cities of Thailand and Malaysia for that long too. In the Golden Triangle, every major drug lord has been Chinese or half Chinese. Money laundering networks in Southeast Asia are in their hands and they often finance and/or provide "guidance" to non-Chinese criminal outfits (e.g. Malays). Of course they have a virtual monopoly on the underworld in China, have a stranglehold in the underworld of Taiwan, Hong Kong, Singapore, and Macao, and control the rackets in most Chinatowns around the world. Not to mention dominating the global trade in counterfeit goods, environmental crime worldwide (illegal timber and fishing, ivory and wildlife, etc), and control the world's biggest illegal sportsbetting operation (soccer). Compared to the Chinese mafia (Triads, Black Societies, Drug Lords, Tongs, etc), the Yakuza, Mafia, Russians and Mexicans are second tier mobs.
While many modern Taiwanese have Chinese ancestry, the majority consider themselves "Taiwanese" and separate from China. Being smaller in numbers doesn't necessarily make it second tier.
For example: "Among those who are 29 or younger, born after martial law ended in 1987, 78 percent hold an exclusively Taiwanese identity — as do nearly 70 percent of people younger than 40. If this trend continues, a solely Taiwanese identity will prevail as residents’ consensus." - Source .
True, but le's take a look at the issue. Virtually every source shows that the Chinese "Mafia" has a total membership that outnumbers that of the Italians, Russians, Japanese, Mexicans, Turks, Indians, Nigerians, and Colombians and then some. Those sources also show that the Chinese "Mafia" has a presence in more countries than any other ethnic mafia. The total revenue earned by it is also greater than any two ethnic mobs, the make more money than any of the other ethnic mobs make from drugs from their dominance of either the counterfeit goods trade or the illegal soccer betting racket. Within China their connections to the Communist Party and the PLA gives them a level of protection comparable to that which the Russian "Mafia" gets in Russia or the Mexican cartels get in Mexico, surpassing the protection the Yakuza has in Japan or the Italian outfits have in Italy. Their influence in Southeast Asia is comparable to that of the Mexican Cartels and Colombian Cartels in Latin America. Their dominance of the drug trade and smuggling in the Far East is comparable to the dominance of the Mexican Cartels in the United States. I have researched this extensively and while estimates of the membership and revenue of the various ethnic mobs varies widely, depending on the sources none of them hold a candle to the Chinese "Mafia"
Yes, I agree with your description. Those countries also have much internal problems with corruption. It should be noted that e.g. the Taiwanese "triads" can be considered seperate. Also while Hong Kong is very small, many people see themselves as Hong Kongers which is different than mainlanders, no matter if they have Chinese ancestry. Hong Kongers originally speak Cantonese which sounds completely different from Mandarin. Being the biggest doesn't necessarily mean that others are second tier though. "Second tier" indicates that something is inferior.
I'm not sure how accurate it is compared to the Cyberpunk lore in the future.
Yes Cantonese sounds different from Mandarin, but that is language / dialect. Hong Kongers are ethnically Chinese and they are considered part of Chinese civilization. Taiwanese see themselves as a separate nation but it's still part of the Chinese civilization and they are ethnically Chinese (though not nationially Chinese). When scholars and law enforcement talk about Chinese organized crime, Chinese Triads, and so on they include the Triads of Hong Kong, Taiwan, and Singapore, the Tongs and gangs of Chinese immigrants and Chinese-Americans in the United States and Canada, the new Chinese ethnic mobs in Europe, the mainland syndicates and criminal networks in China, and so on. On top of that Cyberpunk 2020 (Pacific Rim) which is canon in the Cyberpunk universe lists the Triads of Taiwan, as Chinese itself. End of argument.
By your analogy, most countries in Europe are Italian because it was once a part of Roman Empire. They are not one and the same thing.
"Cyberpunk 2020 (Pacific Rim)" I think this will be different when the new lore is released for Cyberpunk 2077. Clearly Taiwan, is not China, and it has never been a part of the PRC and many people consider themselves Taiwanese, not Chinese.
It's why I called it trivia. Which is historical fact and what the current situation is in the real world. In Cyberpunk lore, in the year 2020 the most powerful nation megacorp is Japanese and the megacorps are mostly Japanese, American, and European. Japan is one of the most powerful nations in the world, with the European Union being number one. The Yakuza is a global mafia and one of the most powerful mafias in the world, if not the most powerful in the world. The Triads are one of the big 3, and control organized crime in China and dominate in Southeast Asia. The Mafia is a criminal power in Europe and is number one in the United States. The Russian Mafiya controls organized crime in the former Soviet Union and is a power in Europe.
In the real world, Japan is not a great power. The United States is still number one and in second place is China which is threatening to dislodge us from our position as top dog. The European Union is not considered a great power by anyone, and gets no respect from either Moscow, Beijing, Washington DC (under Trump), Ankara, or Tehran. When it comes to the corporate world, a good number of Japanese corporation still are in the top tier but they are players in few of the new cutting edge industries and in few strategic industries. Likewise a good number of European corporations are found in the top tier but few are players in the aforementioned sectors. It's American corporations which are the most numerous in the top tier and it's the Chinese corporations who are rising fastest and displacing other corporations in the top tier. When it comes to strategic industries and those of the future, it's mostly American and inceasingly Chinese corporations that are the players.
In the real world, the Italian mobs are still a criminal superpower in Europe but in the United States, they dominate only in NY City. The Yakuza rules in Japan but nowhere else, and focuses on bringing girls and product into Japan from elsewhere. The Russian Mafiya dominates in the former Soviet Union and is a criminal power in Europe. Within the United States, it's the Latino underworld that dominates. With Mexican cartels at the top of the American undeworld, as they control the drug trade and U.S.-Mexico border smuggling (and also control organized crime within Mexico, dominate the upper tier of the underworld in Central America, and whose influence reaches across the coca-producing Andes in South America). It's the Chicano (Mexican-American) prison gangs who dominate the prison systems of California, Texas, New Mexico, and Arizona, work with the Mexican Cartels in the drug trade, and control the Hispanic street gangs in those states. It's the Chicano, Mexican, and Puerto Rican street gangs that dominate the streets of those four states plus Chicago and various smaller cities in other states in the West.
The Chinese Mafia (including the Triads of Hong Kong) controls the underworld in China and Hong Kong, dominates in Taiwan and Southeast Asia, and has operations in both North & South America, Australia, East and Southern Africa, Europe, and Siberia. As I mentioned earlier they dominate environmental crime (illegal fishing fleets, illegal lumber, ivory, animals, etc), the counterfeit goods trade (electronics, clothing, pharmaceuticals, etc), and the illegal sportsbetting racket (soccer - World Cup, professional, etc). Counterfeit goods and betting in soccer are each worth several hundred billion a year, and the Chinese syndicates control most of the aforementioned. They also control the drug trade in Southeast Asia, worth tens of billions a year.
Let me ask you something? Poland, France, Germany, Italy, Spain, etc are considered part of Western civilization correct? Well guess what Taiwan is considered part of Chinese (aka, Confucian civilization) and many historians also consider Korea and Vietnam to be part of Chinese civilization.
When somebody says that this person is Latino, what does it mean? That they come from a culture that is descended from the mixing of the Spanish or Portuguese conquerors / colonists and varous indigenous nations (e.g. Maya, Quechua, Nahuatl, Aymara, etc). Some speak Portuguese, some speak Spanish, and some don't speak either but an indigenous tribal language. All of them are Latinos. Guess what Chinese may speak Mandarin, Teochiu, Hokkien, Cantonese, Hakka, or some other regional dialect but they are all Chinese. Though there are ethnic variations, such as Han Chinese or Hakka Chinese.
What does it mean to be Catholic? There are regional diffrences between an Italian, French, Spanish, Mexican, Brazilian, or Filipino Catholic. Shaped by history and local cultural adaptations (seen in customs, traditions, festivals, holidays, saints, and so on), yet all in theory look toward Rome and the Pope, and are considered Catholic. Well what makes someone ethnically Chinese is not their skin color (variations from pale white to brownish), nor their dialect (there are dozens with Mandarin being the biggest), nor their region (Han is the biggest), nor their nationality (PRC, Taiwan, Singapore, United States, Canada, etc).
What makes one Chinese are the cultural elements since Chinese is not a race but a people that emerged over millennia from the expansion, colonization, and conquest of the rest of China by the Xia Chinese who originated in Shaanxi province. They intermarried with those they conquered, sometimes willingly and sometimes by force, resulting in the range of skin tone, plus a range in height and body types (tall and slender to short and stocky). What unites them is common history (real or perceived - Middle Kingdom, the Mandate of Heaven, etc), common customs and religion (Chinese system of beliefs and traditions formed by Confucianism, Daoism, Chinese Folk Religion, and Buddhism), and the Chinese writing system of pictograms / characters.
It's the latter which is most important. In Europe the migration / invasion / conquest of what used to be the Roman Empire by various Germanic tribes who spoke different languages eventually gave rise to distinct nation-states populated by distint peoples. Who spoke different languages, had different customs, and even though they used the Roman alphabet, they were unable to understand each other's writing. In China that did not happen and the biggest reason is because of the Chinese writing system. It didn't matter if you spoke Hakka, Teochiu, Cantonese, Mandarin, or some other Chinese dialect. Yes, they can't understand each other, but they didn't have to. When it came to written news, contracts, laws, regulations, proclamations, religious text, and so on it was all done using the same written system. All of them understood what this or that character / pictogram said. Together with the imperial civil service and the ideology of the Mandate of Heaven, the writing system was one of the major components of the glue that held the Chinese empire together and contributed to its restoration whenever it fell due to civil war or invasion. That same writing system passed down the same ideas, customs, beliefs, ideology, etc to each new imperial dynasty, the elites (nobility, aristocratic landowners, merchants, imperial bureaucrats, military officers, etc), and later the masses (in the modern era).
"Poland, France, Germany, Italy, Spain, etc are considered part of Western civilization correct?"
"Well guess what Taiwan is considered part of Chinese (aka, Confucian civilization) and many historians also consider Korea and Vietnam to be part of Chinese civilization."
Taiwan is for most of its history a separate country. It had multiple foreign rulers. It was never a part of the PRC. Vietnam was for most of its history a seperate country with a distinct culture and language. The same is true for Tibet. Tibet was not ruled by the Chinese government prior to the 1950 invasion. It has been illegally occupied ever since. https://freetibet.org/about/china-argument
East Turkestan's history dates back to the 8th century BCE. It was a separate country until 1759 when it was occupied by the Manchus.
"East Turkistan had been founded in the Middle Asia and become the centre of Turkish states and khanates through its long history. This Turkish homeland, which became a centre of The Scythians between 8 and 3rd centuries B.C., Huns between 300 B.C. and 93 A.C., Gokturk Empire between 522 and 744, Uyghur Empire between 744 and 840, The Karakhanid Empire between 751 and 870, is shaping an important place in Turkish history. There was a period of peace when very important cultural and political cooperation with China took place. But, this period of peace ended in 1759 by the occupation of China-Manchu Empire over East Turkistan. There had been more than 200 commotions in East Turkistan declaring its independence in 1863 and the people of East Turkistan gained independence three times." https://centralasiaprogram.org/archives/12295
The equivalent of "Western civilization" is "East Asian civilization' or "Asian civilization".
Ok, one last time and then I'm done. Mainstream historians / scholars classify the following civilizations - Western, Chinese (aka Confucian), Hindu (Indian), Islamic, and Eastern Orthodox. Then there are those civilizations which are considered part of the above or branches / cousins - e.g. in the Far East the branchces or cousins of Chinese civilization are Japanese, Vietnamese, and Korean. Just as French, Anglo-Saxon, and German civilizations are considered to be part of the greater Western civilization. Please before you keep going do the research. Point to me a legitimate scholar or source that says "Far East" or "Asian" civilization when describing Chinese civilization (which is also known as Confucian civilization and Sinic civilization, and those that are part of it are known as the Sinosphere)
Sinosphere is not the same as "chinese civilization". East Asian cultural sphere (had much Chinese influence, but it much more than only "chinese civilization". Also there were multiple different civilizations, ethnic groups in the territory that is the PRC.
I Really appreciate your edits, knowledge and passion on these subjects, however please keep it within the Cyberpunk universe. Real world information should really only be reference with a link to a wikipedia article, not a full blown page section. All information on countries population, governmental systems, miliitary and so on, should only come from the sourcebooks (in this instance, pacific rim).
Actually, while it was during the Tang dynasty that the Empire of Yamato was a tributary state to China (until the An Lushan Rebellion of the mid 8th century), Japan was once again a tributary state of China approximately 600 years ago. During the weakest Shogunate in Japanese history, that of the Ashikaga Shogunate of the 14th-16th centuries . The shogun Ashikaga Yoshimitsu (1358-1408) accepted vassalage under the Ming. He was the only Japanese shogun to do so and future generations of samurai and later ultranationalists condemned him.
On the other hand China never conquered Japan, and yes the Japanese did conquer a good chunk of China but that was during a period when China was seriously disunited with warlords and Triads, Nationalists and Communists, Muslim separatists, and European/Russian occupiers in various parts of its country. Japan sooner or later would have had to leave China, they had neither the manpower, natural resources, or industrial capability to complete the conquest. By the time they decided to attack Pearl Harbor the Japanese were for all intents and purposes in a quagmire in China.
Besides the Han Chinese dynasties were never interested in conquering Japan, it was the Mongols who tried to conquer Japan with a huge fleet of Chinese & Korean ships transporting a Mongol & Chinese army. The Tang Dynasty could have invaded Japan in the 7th century during the Tang-Baekje War. A Japanese armada of over 600 ships sent to help their Korean allies (Beakje) against th Chinese and their Korean allies (Silla) was annihilated by the Chinese fleet in the Battle of Baekgang. It was the greatest naval disaster in Japanese history and left the islands defensless. The Japanese panicked and fearing invasion from China built a serious of fortifications on the southenr islands.
Later during the weak Ashikaga Shogunate, the Ming dynasty likewise could have conquered the islands. This was when China had naval supremacy in the Far East, with a huge navy of hundreds of warships that sent a total of seven expeditions of dozens to over a 100 ships (the largest several times larger than Christopher Columbus' ship) to Southeast Asia and then the Indian Ocean (reaching Africa and Arabia). Simply put Japan, like the Philippines and Indonesian archipelago had nothing that China really wanted, except tribute.
Whenever the Chinese waged wars of conquest it was on mainland states with productive agricultural land and/or natural resources that were adjacent (first the Yangtze River and the eastern Yellow River, then Sichuan and the area south of the Yangtze, and later Yunnan, northern Vietnam, southern Manchuria, and Korea). They would also campaign to control strategically important oasis / caravan cities in the Silk Road (the Gansu Corridor, Xinjiang, and eastern Central Asia), and to establish a buffer between China and steppe nomadse (e.g. Inner Mongolia, the Altai Mountains of northern Xinjiang and eastern Mongolia, and the Mongolian plateau).
At different times in history they conquered the steppe nomads (Xiongnu (possibly the Huns), Khitan Mongols, Gokturk (united Turks), and Eastern Turks). At other times they only succeded in breaking their power (Xiongnu and Northern Yuan Mongols). Sometimes they ended up paying tribute to the steppe nomads (Xiongnu, Toba Wei, Gokturks, Khitan Mongols, and Four Oirat Mongols). At other times they lost parts of northern China to the steppe nomads (Toba Wei and Khitan Mongols) and in one case all of China fell to the steppe nomads (Yuan Mongols).
The Han Chinese dynasties of the Han and Tang paid tribute at the beginning, and would end up later conquering the steppe nomads. The Song dynasty paid tribute from the beginning and ended up being conquered by the Mongols. The Ming dynasty overthrew the Mongol Yuan dynasty, expelled the Mongols from China, then broke the power of the resurgent Northern Yuan but later would at certain periods pay tribute to the Four Oirat Mongols (Western Mongols)
See below regarding the Ming and Ashikaga Shogunate:
You should be more clear when you write these broad generalizations about other countries.
To be clear: Japanese shogun Ashikaga Yoshimitsu was the only person who accepted the Chinese title of "king" in 1404 despite not being the Emperor of Japan. For a brief period until his death in 1408 Japan was an official tributary state. In 1549 Japan ceased to recognize China's hegemony and left it's tributary system.