They need to go into the sub-categories of them, not the main one. So if there's an "organizations" and a "2020 organizations" it goes into the latter, as the latter is already within the main "organizations" category.
I think I get what you're saying. However categorizing things by "as seen in 2020" or "as seen in 2077" is not a great idea for a category system. Simply creating an organizations category and then having "security organizations" underneath that page would be much better and easier. If we want to know whether or not it appears in a game we can just make an appearances section inside the article itself.
That's actually a very standard practice for games information on wikis as otherwise, it can make the main category too flooded (especially open worlds, where having 200+ named characters makes a "character" category pointless, but makes it easier when broken down by game). It's also very useful when implementing DPL coding. That said, categories shouldn't get too niche: when only a handful of pages qualify for a category that's not extremely important and could easily fit in a higher category, it's better to go there. You want readers to not have to click through a tone of sub-categories when a larger one will work.
I hear what you guys are saying. Basically, I'm trying to make it so pages don't get bloated with information from ALL the games, plus a little lore section at the top. I also want to standardize some formatting styles and having a clear delineation between pages that are for different subjects would be easier than having to delineate those styles within the pages themselves.
But honestly, the real reason I want this at the most basic and selfish level is that I want a lore page without game info on it so I don't have to deal with whatever you guys decide to do with that side of things. :P
Essentially, I want to become "captain of lore" and focus on improving that side of the wiki. Mechemik or whoever else can become "captain of gameplay" and focus on that side of the wiki. Ultimately we'd both be responsible for improving our sides of the wiki, and establish formatting and standardized rules for editors of that section after a consensus between the team heads and Chris, the Bureaucrat, is made.
As an English and Business Admin/Finance Major, I really like rules, hierarchies, standardized procedures and formatting. I really want to implement some sweeping changes to get the wiki ready in that regard, and once that is done start editing the wiki based on the new standards that would be established by us. I really want this wiki to succeed, as I've stated before. With a long weekend coming up I should hopefully be more active and quicker on my responses. Please get in touch soon!
To be honest, the idea of specific people doing specific things isnt going to work. If pages are bloated with info from all the games, then it shouldnt be a problem, and a big "bloated" page is not an issue, especially if the information is relevent and correct. I Especially do not like the idea of seperate "teams" doing their own formatting and whatnot, the whole wiki should be standardized, and so far i think the policy and guidelines do an ok job of explaining that. Boots, i think the issues you are addressing are complete non-issues, i would advise you start editing more often and with more substance. Pages shouldnt just be about lore or just be about gameplay, the page needs to flow naturally and if these overlap, then its not a problem. You have to remember, that this isnt a book or a film series, where statistics are not important, this is a pen 'n' paper RPG/video game series, and statistics and information like that is important and integral in some cases.
First of all, I want to politely reject your accusation that I edit "with no substance." My edits to the United States page alone have brought it up to the single-largest article on this entire wiki, with the single largest edit being over 8,000 bytes alone. I have created multiple pages, and have spent hours scouring sourcebooks written by R. Talsorian games to create multiple new pages. I have edited infoboxes, created infoboxes, added images from the sourcebooks and have been very active in communicating my desire to see this wiki succeed. I believe the quality of the edits show the dedication I am willing to bring to this wiki; and the work that I wish to do on it.
I am not however, in the business of spending hours of my own free time to write articles for the wiki and then get accused of "never" editing and with "no substance." The wiki barely has any editors on its own.
I am aware that this is not a book or film series, I have stated in multiple paragraph-long posts I am aware of that. I have stated multiple solutions on ways to solve this issue and come to a compromise. I have offered to share my Discord with you, and attempted to find other ways for us to communicate. I feel that my suggestions are either not being heard or misunderstood. I have only heard "no" answers to my suggestions, without any other suggestions of other ways to do things beyond how they are currently done. I feel as if I am attempting to start a dialogue and contribute only to be sidelined.
I am not accusing you or anyone else of anything. I strongly believe that we need a better dialogue between us to better understand each other. I think we are suffering from a severe case of misinformation and miscommunication.
I also do not believe that my desire to: see standardized formatting among wiki pages; to define the political and hierarchical structure of the wiki in terms of admins, moderators, and organization; and my desire to start planning ahead of time to optimize the category system for future use to ease the managerial burden on our users in maintaining the wiki in the long run, are a "non-issue."
Furthermore, on the last point, a big "bloated" page is an issue. There are multiple pages on Wikipedia itself describing why page bloat is detrimental to the long-term viability of a wiki and decrease readership. There is a reason I split the "Government of the United States" article (again, an extremely large article with much substance) into its own page rather than shove it into the United States page itself and see the page become too bloated.
As stated by Wikipedia itself, "Advocates of adding a lot of details may argue that all of these details are reliably sourced. Even though the details may be reliably sourced, one must not lose sight of the need for balance."
In essence, each page should have a certain scope. Shoving everything into a single page blurs the page's focus, affects its readability, and looks unprofessional in the long run.
I hope that the creation of the Discord server will allow us to have more meaningful and constructive conversations in the future.
With regards to the substance comment, is in due to the fact that you have only contributed 176 edits and looking at your contributions page, the first page of which is mostly category adding. I Understand that this is not a contest and edit count should not be compared and I Fully admit i am not as active as i would like to be, however when i do come on, i feel that all i see are your user chat posts to myself or Mechemik rather than content creation. Your contributions are welcome, as are everyones, after all we are all just fans putting our own time and knowledge into a project such as this.
I Feel that we have different ideas on what a bloated page is. I Dot not expect USA and Governments of USA to be one page, they are very clearly two very complext subjects which both deserve their own page, however lore and gameplay are not, and should rightfully be on one page without separation via tabs etc.
I am sorry that you feel your ideas/suggestions are being sidelines or that you keep hearing NO, but as i mentioned before, these are non-issues. I Am of the mind "if it aint broke, dont fix it", and your suggestions are unnecessary in those instances.
Lore and gameplay shouldnt be separated and the idea of tabs should be dropped from now on, the reason - it hides information and pointlessly separates it all. I Offered a suggestion of tabbed infoboxes instead which will work much better for those specific needs, such as gun stats etc.
Communication - My activity on here will be the same on any other social media/chat platform. By all means set one up and i will join it, however unless i am on exactly at that time, i will not respond quickly. Timezones and different countries are the main blocks in communication as well as personal lives, jobs, school etc.
I Will reiterate, if you have specific issues with the editing guide, please let me know and we can have a look at that. Like i said, start making some edits with real substance like your America page. Its great work and really up to the standard that we want here, however address problems when you come to them, rather than trying to address things before they become and issue, because at this rate, all we will do is write post after post about it (like we are right now), rather than creating content that this wiki so sorely needs.
But the reason I am editing categories (only to have all my edits be undone) is precisely to prepare in advance the foundation of this wiki and improve its organization. In your post above, you have directly skirted my point addressing why these issues are not "non-issues" and instead do not respond to my points with any meaningful suggestions or counter-arguments as to why they are "non-issues" other than "they are non-issues."
Frankly speaking, I'm not going to make more hours-long edits to this wiki if the basic structure of the wiki itself is unorganized; and all my well-thought out suggestions are, frankly, not listened to and not even addressed beyond "they're non-issues." If you want to see more edits to this wiki, perhaps you should start editing more like I have done. I am not some "work horse" that will do all the work while you go away for weeks at a time and tell me my suggestions for improving the wiki are "non-issues." Frankly speaking, I'm a bit insulted that your responses to my posts are apparently unimportant enough that you do not even bother to use correct grammar, spelling, and sentence structure in your responses.
Also, I am surprised my America page edit is up to the standards that are here, especially since the page dealing with "standards" barely mentions any at all. But then again, I suppose this in itself is another "non-issue" that I have attempted to bring to your attention.
Unless you decide to respond to my posts with actual, clear counter-arguments that debate my points instead of dismissing them outright: do not expect me to spend any more time improving this wiki. I have a life and this is volunteer work as you have pointed out, and frankly I'm not going to volunteer my time only to have my concerns be dismissed by an admin who is barely online and doesn't bother to proofread his responses to me.
- I wish you the best of luck in the future of this wiki,
I Have to be honest here, i get that you are passionate about this subject, but i think you need to take a step back and look at what this is. Its a fan wiki, where fans edit content about a subject, and you seem to be taking this a bit more seriously than it needs to be. I Am not saying this is unimportant, but you seem to be very worked up over a small thing. As we both said, this is just a volunteer thing, and we all have lives outside of this. It just needs some perspective.
I Think that i have addressed your issues perfectly clear, and i am not skirting the issues, because in reality these are not issues you need to be concerned with. Categories are a very straightforward thing, and do not need to be obsessed over or debated in such a fashion. Mechemik is absolutly right in his responces to you, and i would heed his advice as a content team member. I Get that you want to be prepared for the onslaught of information from the game but i do not feel like your concerns raised would impact editing and content creation down the line.
The whole non-issue thing, is exactly what i mean. You have created these issues where i do not feel like they existed in the past, and that they will have minimal impact in the future. Yes we need to prepare, but having "captains of lore" and "captains of gameplay" is not something we need to even think about at this time. You mentioned having a page with lore and no game info. This is a perfect example of a non-issue. A Page should blend naturally with lore and gameplay, and we shouldnt be dividing it up.
As far as i am aware, the divide between gameplay and lore, the categories (though this is mostly aimed at Mechemik), communication and the formatting/style guide are the only issues that you have raised (please correct me if you feel i have missed something out). As i said before, the lore/gameplay thing is done and i feel like my responces should be sufficiant. Its not an issue if the page is long if the subject requires it. If the subject is fairly complex then divide them accordingly. We are on the same page in regards to the America/Government articles.
The style guide/formatting of content is something you have mentioned several times, yes it needs updating, and as i said, let me know specific areas that need to be added/changed. You mentioned you wanted standardization and formatting procedures, but have not really given any information on what that means. From my perspective, you want this to mean dividing pages up between lore, having proper categories etc. However i do not know if this is what you actually mean or not.
I do not want to belittle your edits, and like i said your America page is good, however i want more of that, and less of what we have been discussing. There are so many complex subjects that need a really indepth analysis, however we are arguing weather a page should be divided by lore etc.
Its not that i do not care about my spelling and whatnot, but this is just a chat page, where we all feel the need to overdiscuss things to the point where my responces are long and bloated. Sorry that i have not proofread a 500+ word essay to you, but rest assured that articles and chat pages are not the same in regards to the editing policies